Legacy LD5

Ok, since Dino encouraged me with his recent post ( viewtopic.php?f=9&t=586&p=5393#p5393 ), and since I always wanted to do this once, if only for the curious or the sake of ranting, I summed up some points of those two Superhero MMOs, Crackton aka City of Heroes/Villains and Champions online, from my now playing vs. end of beta point of view, as objectively as I can.

Hero MMO:	Crackton	Shamepeons
graphics / visuals:	Cool if a bit aged after the 5 years with only slight graphics changes now, lots of cool textures on characters and very atmospheric looks on the world stuff as well. Particle effects and such are still up to date and look impressive, mostly originating from the player's super powers. All in all a decent fit. /	Graphics are of course top, dynamic shadows and all that working smoothly. The look often is pretty painful though, some things have great matte textures, other things are photo-realistic, others overbright colors with no textures and instead relying on the lighting effects of the enormous surface bumpmap and perhaps on the player having turned on the comic book style black outlining. While impressive, It sometimes seems if they couldnt decide on the look. /
Game world:	The world is devided into zones, some Hero-only, some Villain-only and some for PvP or Co-Op. Most early zones are pretty much city, each zone being a different neighborhood, most of it amazingly immersive. There are some weirdly wide areas with sidewalks you could play baseball on and only few isolate highrises in between in some of the shinier areas that look a bit odd, only one train station (your primary way of transportation at early levels) per zone looks a bit weird, and there are those annoying force field 'warwalls' around most parts (on hero side), but the industrial and rundown areas totally carry the flair. Its has this retro near future look, cars and all, that makes it very comic book, and every single corner of the town somehow manages to look distinctively like Paragon City.	The world has a huge city, which is one big zone, and there are a couple of other zones featuring desert, snow, jungle and underwater. Since most of the game is open world, those zones are often totally spammed with amazing things that often are very unique and rare and should affect the surrounding for miles, but instead stick right next to each other to a point where its ridiculous. Especially the 'wilderness' zones suffer from this. Here is that radioactive pools with the Primus base and with irradiates all over it right next to this alien invasion right next to this ghost town right next to this theme park taken over by robots right next to this Viper base right next to Area 51 that lies right in the shadow of the biggest supervillain prison on the world, that they built in the most isolated spot on earth. HUH? In the city its less mindboggling, but while they sure tried, most of the city looks either weird or generic.
Mission mechanics:	About 90% of the missions are instanced. Rescue some people in an office, investigate a warehouse, skim instanced outdoor areas, or listen to the police radio (/ search the paper for secret message on Villain side) and do a few jobs then be allowed to stop a bank robbery (/rob a bank) in a big mayhem with side missions. In the zones your contacts and the mission doors are located, and aside from invasions or Giant Monsters they are only for rare hunting missions and socializing.	About 90% of all missions are open world missions, which often means competition or waiting for respawns, and seeing someone else doing your mission. That isnt fun in a fantasy game already, but horrible in a hero game, where I am supposed to be on a secret mission, plus always try to help citizens in distress which here often means objective stealing. To help that a bit there are lots of shards of each zone, but that of course hinders socializing.
Gameplay:	"Whack-a-mole" mechanic, standard Endurance. Wait for a power to reload, then fire it off once. All powers are either click for full effect, toggle, or automatic. You can have way more powers then you need to fill an attack chain, and enhance each of them to reload much faster, plus get power to have them all reload faster. Your powers cost End, you regenerate it. You can enhance each power to cost less and get powers to increase your production or lower your overall consumption. You start with few attacks you have to cycle through, then pick a few that you can use only once per fight or only in an emergency because of long reload, and a few that come in handy in certain situations only. -matter of taste-	Button-Spamming, Endurance equilibrium. Few attack powers have a reload time, and you can spam or charge or maintain some powers, and some powers consume Endurance while a select few others build it. Otherwise your End regenerates or decays to a stats-based equilibirum point that is usually too low to fire higher tier powers. Depending on your attack powers, you can end up clicking a button like a madman. Much like a console game. -matter of taste-
Teaming:	Fun and easy, everyone is brought to the right level for it by the teaming mechanic, everyone gets mission reward, and with most of the content being in an instance, everyone travels for a minute or few and then everybody works together on this mission for a quarter of an hour to several on a task force, on the team's own content, that scales with the team size and the leader's difficulty settings, so it can be always challenging and fun.	Teaming is hard since 90% of the missions are outdoor stuff, relying on lots of running and searching, which is hard with a team of heroes with different travel powers. And then the mission is either over after a minute, or the objective hasnt respwaned yet, or you have to wait in line for another group, and/or someone finds another objective for another mission of his because the content always overlaps, plus you get confused with who is on your team with so many heroes around and often dont get rewards for team tasks. The latter they'll hopefully change, but still.
Player vs. Player:	Arena, a few Heroes-vs.-Villans faction PvP zones with nothing in particular in them, in which everyone is made the same level, one free-for-all zone, but its not the highest level. Balance is OK, yet few people PvP because there's little in it but the thrill of PvP.	Arena. There are no Villains, thus there is no faction PvP either. PvP? What PvP?
'Costume' customization:	Great amount of costume options, the best the world had seen so far, full blown shape and clothes and objects customization, lots of different face textures on a free-formable heads, hairs, hats, goggles, masks, lots of different two-color pattern options for each part of cloth. Wings, tails, a few not-so-freefromable beast heads.	Taking the system a step further. Though there are not so many faces to choose from and the graphics focus of the game being more on shapes than textures its harder to get a face or piece of equipment to look right, but the options are already more and growing. There's not so many color patterns (yet?), but they can be 4 colors for that. Wings, REAL sexy and animated tails, more beast parts, applicable color patterns on them and lots of eye options on lots of beast heads.
Hero Customization:	You can select a sort of class, and then a primary and a secondary powerset from a list for that class. The primary is usually stronger than the secondary, and what kind of powersets (offenseive, defensive, control, buffing, ... ) a class gets as primary and secondary is, among moderate damage output and hit points modifiers, what makes a class. You can then select powers, either from one of these sets or from pools available for everyone, put up to five additional slots into a power (they come with one slot), and put a lot of different enhancements into such a slot to enhance the base functionality of a power in one aspect, like damage, accuracy, recharge time, endurance needed, range, knockback strength, or whatever that power has. So while you have classes, you can have lots of different powerset combinations in each, and while there are of course certain stereotypes for each of those, you can tweak each power this way or that, or not at all.	You can select basically any powers you like, with the restriction to some of requiring a certain amount of other powers, sometimes from a certain set, first, and some powers giving super duper bonus effects when used with the special state that you can get when you successfully used another power under the effect of a third, and being otherwise rather pointless. There are no classes, and since everybody can have everything they need there is not much reason to build one either. You can then advance a power a few times, buying two or three out of the four or five premade advancements. So while you are not 'forced into the stereotype of a class' and while you can set yourself into a role, adding a little here or there to your build, everybody is pretty much the same, plus you cannot really tweak a power one way or another. You'll have to make up for this with stats, the only thing that can really define you, which you can also buy only bundled.
Equipment:	Equipment comes in the form of enhancements you can put into those slots, recipes for making such enhancements, and token salvage items that you need for those recipes. You get it automatically when you defeat something or finish a mission. There is a fix set of enhancements/recipes that exists, and the difference between what you can buy / craft from what you found easily and the super rare stuff and set boni is some 10 to at most 15%. That is actually what makes CoX pretty unique, freeing you of the need to strave for loot or be doomed, or hope for a +87A,+234B,-3C level 56 rusty kneecap instead of your +85A,+197B,-2C level 56 rusty kneecap. Once you slot something it becomes part of you and cant be removed normally, so you dont have to auction your old stuff all the time either.	Equipment is what you are. You have a select few equipment slots for head, body and utility just like in fantasy games, and need to strip items for it from your slain foes (manually collecting it from hovering exclaimation marks) or craft / trade it. Especially with stats in this game being so important and the only thing that defines you, and equipment raising your stats, your equipment makes 80% of your character. The gap between the top notch equipment of a certain level and the average might not be all that big, but the gap between having a +21 of the right stat item and a +15 of the wrong is fatal. At least the beta crowd rioted enough to make everything you once wear untradable, so its only Batman now wearing Doctor Doom's mask because it had cooler stats than his, not also Spiderman now wearing Batman's old.
Power Customization:	If you have a weapon (gun, bow, sword, shield) you can select it from a list and color it. If your power has a graphic effect, you can choose its flair (shiny, evil-dark) and its colors. If it comes with an animation, you can often select between two (e.g. Ground punch instead of ground stomp, two-hand-punch instead of whirling uppercut... ), and they're still adding to it.	Power customization was one of CO's major selling points. So far you can select the weapon from a list, change the color of your power, and where the beam comes out from, if the got that working. Cool.
overall:	Fun and atmospheric if a bit aged Hero RPG, where you can see lots of other heroes talking or on the way to their missions.	Funky often candy colored action MMO in an overpacked theme park world, where you can see lots of other heroes at quest hubs or doing YOUR missions.

Wow, Shampoons is sucky indeed. Yeah, big pass on that one. Still wondering if "Fallen Earth" will be fun or not, though.

I think it mostly depends on taste. Things like instanced vs open world are really more on preference, both have advantages and disadvantages. I've personally rather enjoyed CO thus far.

I'm not seeing much advantage in 'open world' myself. I hate people. I barely want to play with friends online! Why would I want to have a ton of people I don't care about in my way?

Well, if it were me, and I was able to grow like that...i'd say for the sheer fun of stepping on people!

Though once Crackton (as you say it) Gets to getting powers like that, and giving dragons proper parts...I'd -much- rather stick with it, since i've played it for quite a while.

Oh, trust me, they'll remove that growth bug as soon as they have the most game breaking issues duct-taped. Plus tune the originally intended growth down to puny.
People will complain that giants get in their way and they cant see anything, that its unfair that some players get to be cool and big and they dont, or that THEY cant see anything when being giant but aggro everything, or that small players always hide behind big tankers in the Arena PvP and that you now HAVE to play a giant to be a good tanker, and then there is all those clipping problems, ...
And mind you some select few bits of content ARE indoors, and would you really want to be stuck in the ceiling any more than with an 8 foot plus tall dragon guy in the caves in CoX?

Nah, developers dont want people to play giants and be cool. Or in any way extreme in general.
Besides, its a temp buff during combat that is hard to get and lasts mere seconds.

You mean except for Faibanx 3D developers.

Well, getting as big as that they may fix if they make it so you can't leave with the monster island growth (about 4 times normal size), though could still do it in the monster island crisis zone. Grow stacks from different abilities, and if people don't like it, they don't have to use it. The two powers that give growth has an advantage you can purchase to turn that feature on, so the powers don't make you grow by default. Although it may not be quite as realistic, collision detection is based on your base size, so although you shouldn't be able to squeeze through that doorway, the game doesn't stop you.

And as far as open world goes, that is why I say it is a matter of preference. Other people may want to interact with other players to varying degrees. If you don't much want to deal with other players at all, then yes, the CoH design works for you better. On the other end of the spectrum, people who like to socialize a lot, will hate CoH's system. Although most people probably fit somewhere in the middle of these two extremes in varying degrees.

The question is if its people you can say hi to and opt to team with or people that you HAVE to arrange with though. Plus when you go to one of the important places like the social center at Atlas Park or a Wenworth's in CoX, there's actually MORE players to meet there than in CO, since in CoX each outdoor zone is meant to have one instance of it by default, not a dozen that players are spread out upon randomly.

Sure, optimally there'd be a little more to do outdoors than in CoX, but not ridiculous supposedly-only-happening-once stuff that constantly spams the map, and never ever something unique that you need to do for a mission and another player can take away from you. Open world content in CoX is not enough, but if I were to chose between those two extremes with a slider, it would be only 20% the way from CoX to CO.

Optimally for the hero genre there'd be random and unpredictable events, like a robbery or emergency somewhere that you either watch or hear about on the police bands.
Smoke over the city? Better check it out. Police car with sirens on? Gunshots and screaming civilians? Shady people gathering in front of a bank?
THAT would be cool and fitting the genre, and cannot be taken away from you because it doesnt belong to anybody. But neither of the games have that, nowhere near it. Crackton is close with its Fires and Troll Raids, as they happen randomly and at a random location. But each of those only ever happens in one zone, and its always exactly the same. Its a single 'zone event' that is also not meant for a single hero that passes by, and after you did it once it is boring, just like all the other one-per-zone zone events.
CO is nowhere better though! There's a bank robbery, a prison break, assassins threatening the mayor's speech and a burning building alright, but they always happen at the same spot, and some of them like the burning building even NEVER go away! You saved five people and put out five fires, great work. Job done. Now go away and leave the rest of the respawned trapped people and fires for other heroes, and ignore this burning building from now on. HUH?
Other things like the prison break and the mayor's speech are open missions that everyone in the area can work on, that take place in a large area and take a LONG time and/or a LOT of heroes to finish. As a result it soon becomes very annoying that there is a prison break and assassins at the mayor's speech AGAIN everytime you pass through that neighborhood. That you once again have to ignore because you've done it three times already and it would keep you busy forever. Just like the fires and troll raids in CoX, but they even pop up as a mission on your screen everytime you get near the prison or speech.

I guess CoX zone content is boring while CO zone content is often annoying and immersion breaking, and that I prefer being bored when traveling to my missions to being annoyed and reminded too much of the game mechanics when doing them.
*shrugs*
Both games may still evolve anyway.

I know I'm a little late on replying to this, but thank you for the very comprehensive comparison between the two games, Blue. I'm not really interested in trying out CO, and now I am glad that there is justification for that. In particular, I think I would really hate that open world concept and having to wait in line for missions to respawn. I can think of one similar instance in Crackton where you have an enemy group, required for a hunting mission, that spawns in only one place, and where you often have more than one player hovering around waiting for respawns, and I absolutely loathe that. So I think I would get fed up with CO very quickly, if that's the case in a majority of missions.

I know that Crackton isn't perfect, and there's in fact several things about it I often complain about - lack of beast heads and customization of same in the CC being a prime example. But Crackton is truly one of the few games in my life that I have played to this extent. And one of the selling points for me is one that you also approved of, that of being teaming-friendly. But at the same time, if you have the right combination of AT and powersets, Crackton is soloable too, for those times when there isn't anyone on to play with. That versatility is a big draw for me, personally.

Crackton may look a little dated compared to the glitzy shiny of CO, but like Dino I'm not particularly fond of the cell shaded look, so that doesn't bother me. And for all that you gave CO a higher score in that respect than Crackton, I noticed more complaints about CO in your text in that section than about Crackton. And Crackton is working on that aspect too, as evidenced by the most recent Issue with the power customizations.

Crackton is also still adding new game play content and storylines and expanding their universe with each new Issue, so the game is evolving. CO is still new, so it remains to be seen whether it will do the same. But I'm looking at it this way - CO was created by the guys that held Crackton back for quite awhile. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

But anyway, thank you for this. I can tell you put a lot of thought and consideration into it. ^_^

Just to throw a wrench into the mix:

Blue is right for the most part, but it's also a bit opinionated.
Respawns (as far as I saw) are near instant. You kill some boss needed for a quest, and he's nearly right back. Sometimes up to a 30 second wait, but he's back.
Yes there is a lot of people attacking the stuff you attacked first. But for the most part, people are apologetic about it, and they move on.

Champions Online and City of Heroes are two completely different games. One plays more like a traditional PC MMO (CoH), and the other is more action oriented, and feels almost like a console game (CO) Personally, I like both. They have their pros and cons. One thing I should mention that stands out above all else is that there is more you can do with your character in CO. Like size alteration and the ability to edit power colors on the fly. Since my CoH subscription expired recently, I can't confirm if you can do this in CoH or not.

In any case, I doubt I swayed anyone, it wasn't really my intention.

Oh, I never denied that I am biased.

Seriously, CO was, when I last saw it, I playable viable game alright. Very MMO, very fast-clicky, and with awsome graphics and costume options, but not very RPG and with all the common MMO downsides that CoX avoids quite well, which makes CoX break the mold for me. But other MMOs run well with all those flaws and annoyances too, so CO can still be an average or even good MMO with colorful tights added to it.

I may have been unclear there. Its not so much having been robbed by a minute or two of my life because I had to wait for a boss or other mission objective to respawn that puts me off, its that I cant feel immersed when other players interact with my mission. Plus when the evil Doctor Doom and a victim trapped under debris are there whenever I come by, but I have to ignore it because its not my mission, then it becomes my mission and now I am allowed to care, and then it immediately respawns and I have to ignore it for the rest of the game again. That's...
That's stupid game mechanics shoved into my face too much. Like I said on their beta forums, that may slip better in a fantasy game where a) the wizard needs the magic mushroom and the knight need to slay the alpha wolf so they can both happily ignore the other's objective, and b) once the mushroom potion is brewed and the wolf pelt recieved (sorry wolves) it doenst make sense anymore to look for more mushrooms or the new alpha wolf. But in a hero game the objectives should be threats to the populace or citizens in distress, and its against every single one's character to ever ignore those.


You can. At the tailor, you can whose an animation (somtimes) and a gfx style for your power and TWO colours that the effect is combined of. Twice as good.

But hey, I really tried to see what each game has as objectively as I could, just the rating of that may be very subjective. Yet CO still got more up thumbs than downs, especially if you dont want to PvP, and may be getting better still. But CoX gives me the feeling its more about the fun you have playing it than the loot you get for it.
Which makes sense in a way as with less need for phat epic loot people are less likely to play only for the loot, but rather play a character and kind of content they find fun instead.

Well said. That's certainly why I play the game, for the RPing and the enjoyment. I'm not a badge/reward hunter, I don't have to find/get/earn every last tidbit in the game. My characters don't have to be perfect and all-powerful. In fact, I prefer it when they're not, when their powers aren't completely pimped, when they have foibles and weaknesses. That's all part of makes the game fun for me.

I totally understand the appeal of CO for a lot of people, and if I want to be honest, I wouldn't mind trying it for myself eventually. But, as it stands right now, I'm still too into Crackton to want to wander very far afield.

Oh, I'll sure try CO again some time too to see what its like then. Just as I want to try DCUO.

Still I think CoX scores better for its fun, immersive and non-loot-based way, even with less eyecandy. (NOT meant as a pun. )

If CO is around a year from now. *coughcoughtabularasacough*